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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}[ Bowen ] My name is Bowen Marshall. I am from 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Pleasanton, Kansas, which is a town of 1,000 so I often say I'm a country boy at heart.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}I don't know, what do you wanna know about me or what are common questions that people answer about themselves? [ interviewer ] well, um
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}do you remember learning how to read or write? [ Bowen ] I do. I remember the first, well, because no one
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}taught me how to read. It was just, here's a book, figure it out. And my mom was a second grade school teacher which has always been odd to me.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}So, uh, the first, the first significant, like, book I remember reading was
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}"Wayside Stories from Wayside School" in second grade, and I think I got to like the twelfth
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}'cause you know they're tiny chapters, twelfth chapter that year, and I was so proud of myself for tackling like a chapter book in second grade.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}And then third grade I read my first chapter book, and then I got sucked into Anamorphs. And my uh mom
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}was like he's not learning anything. So she said you need to read "Swiss Family Robinson." And so in fourth grade I read 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}"Swiss Family Robinson," which was a massive book. But it really pushed me to, to actually read
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and engage with material and things like that so. [  interviewer  ] And how did you end up in Columbus? [ Bowen ] Graduate school
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}so I uh, my advisor in undergrad said any graduate school worth their salt will pay you, so don't go anywhere where you're not, where don't have full funding
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and a stipend. Thank goodness he gave me that advice. [ interviewer ] so uh what were the other factors other than that that went into
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}choosing Ohio State? [ Bowen ] Um, so I had no idea what a big deal Ohio State was, like I was oh, what's Ohio?
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Like, it's Ohio. And so um, I actually applied, I thought
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}most Master's programs in most fields I think the deadline is like January 29, so I was like, Oh well I have until January 29 to apply for all
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}of these programs. Um, I didn't. The deadline was December 31, so I missed the application deadline when I went I went to check online by
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}one day. For Higher Education and Student Affairs. 'Cause I just--my undergraduate was in Cognitive Psychology and Quantitative Statistics
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and while it was really interesting, I just didn't like it. There was really not human interaction, it was too research focused. So
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}I went ahead and said well, I loved being an RA, it kinda got m
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}through some of the worst times, and I loved helping people and so why not? You know, it's two year, get a Master's degree, then figure it out.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}So I missed the application deadline by one day for all the top 10 programs, and was like, ugh!
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}So I went ahead and uh I was just stumbling around the website and I saw the counselor education program was open. And I was like, well, you know
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}I'd love to see what on the other side of diagnosis 'cause I constantly refer to people to our, it was called CAPS I think--Counseling and Psychological Services
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}at the University of Kansas. And so I applied and found it was a two-years practitioner degree, um
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and they accepted me sight unseen. And then I dead-dropped my CV or my resume-slash-CV
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}to like seven departments at this university, not knowing anyone. Originally thinking I was going to do gerontology because one of my labs
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}was in caregiver grief and burden and AAlzheimer's research, um, which was fascinating. It was interesting
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}but um the Office of Diversity and Inclusion, formerly the Office of Minority Affairs kicked me over to
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}the Multicultural Center and they hired me over a phone interview. So, so I just came out. I actually went on Craigslist and found
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}four roommates, potential roommates, and picked the least creepy one. Thank goodness I did an 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}in-person interview because--yeah. [ Interviewer ] ok, um, so
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}what then um, how, what would you. Can you maybe give
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}me um. What you, what do you think of Columbus, I guess? I was trying to think of a way to ask that without asking, 'what do you think of Columbus' but
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}um [ Bowen ] Well so I went on a date last night with a guy from um
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Starbucks and I was like, 'oh do you like to MoJo by Columbus Commons?' And he's like, 'absolutely not.' And he gave me this
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}look, and I was like, 'well it's a lounge. They serve liquor there. i enjoy the coffee-liquor atmosphere because it makes you feel like 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}not a lush.' Um 'cause you know some people are having stimulating conversation somewhere in that building so you feel better. And he was like
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}'well we have those!' And I was like, 'what in a first-tier cities? How long is gonna take to get to a third-tier city like Columbus?' And I think, I don't even know
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}if Columbus is a third-tier city, but it's classified based on population. For me, COlumbus is
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}has been great. Um, it's so midwestern and friendly so smiling is not a sign of overt aggression.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Um and I mean demographically, I think it's one television 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}share market size smaller than Kansas City was the largest big city close to me growing up
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and I don't know. It's just a great mix of people. So i went from a town of 1,000 to town
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}of 120,000 when school was in session to a city of almost 2 million. And I remember the first time I was
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}stuck in rush hour. I as like 5 o'clock over by Easton, and I was like, I called my mom. This was before, you know talking in
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}the car verboten. And I was like 'Mom, I think like maybe there's a funeral or something or maybe there was a really
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}bad accident. But, like traffic is not moving and I just don't understand. Like I can't see an obstructions.' And she was like
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}'Bowen, it's 5 o'clock there." I was like, "so?' "It's rush hour."  I was like, "oh!"
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Which is only like 12 minutes at a light, so I shouldn't be complaining. But yeah just it's interesting
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}The food seems pretty good, so. [ interviewer ] um can you maybe share um
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}a story about your experiences in grad school in terms of reading and writing and
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}all of that? Um was it much different or similar to what you were expecting? um
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}[ Bowen ] Not as hard as I thought it would be. I don't know, I've always expected just to be flummoxed by something and that's
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}happened once, in my second quarter as Master's student. We had to do
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}a comprehensive psychology assessment, and I have never seen anything like it before. Like how you sit with someone for
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}maybe four hours, maybe two hours, and really tease out the patterns in their lives and find out the maladaptive ones
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}that they want to change, and then make a treatment plan based off that. And when you're not used to looking at people in that
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}ver structured , clinical, discreet way it's really hard to then write it effectively. And so it was the first time I
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}ever failed a writing assignment. You know, we get back these very behaviorist colored bars and you look and see the person
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}next you has four colored bars and you have one. I think I had two and one of my friends had like 5. 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}And I was just like, oh my gosh, what am I doing wrong? But it encouraged us to really pair up and see who had
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}strength in what areas and then learn from it. Um probably my second most challenging assignment
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}was my first qualitative research class. Because again, I was so embedded in the epistemology of like positivist research
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}I mean, 'cause if you think about it, most social science is structured around psychology and the four chapter
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}behaviorism. Like introduction, methodology, results, discussion. And so seeing things
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}that broke that framework, I remember reading some article and I was like how is this different than like a Jane Austen novel?
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Like what? This sounds like an auto-ethnography, which really just seems like an autobiographical account
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}of someone's life. So it really challenged me to think outside of what counts as research and why do we
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}feel this need to legitimate something by putting it inside a research context and how does that
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}empower some speakers and disempower others who then can't get in that door because they don't have a Ph.D. or Master's degree and so
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}their work is seen as less valid even though they may have done due diligence.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Qualitative researcher drew from journalism, which is just really detailed accounts. Um so that's
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}just been fascinating. I think I'm gonna submit a paper this next year to AERA on uh the epistemological assumptions around counselor education.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}[  interviewer  ] what is A- could you, what is the acronym? [ bowen ] I'm sorry--AERA. Um, 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Association of Educators in Research or something like that. It's a conference that you submit
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}papers to. But again, because we're admitted in counseling, which is in some ways, psychology lite
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}I hate to say it that way. Counseling definitely has it's bent because there's no, no difference in efficacy 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}between um Master clinicians and PhD clinicians. The only, the single greatest and only
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}reliable predictor is face time, so how many hours you sit in front of a person. So I don't think that clinicians needs
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}PhDs to practice. However to do research they absolutely do. So because we're a field that's bifurcated
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}by that--we're not all doctors when we come out as practitioners--um the research just hasn't been emphasized in the same way
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and so we don't necessarily play in the largest education pedagogy, which is
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}where most counselor education programs are located as opposed to schools of psychology, although, again, that was a split that happened
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}50 years ago because we said we want to license Master's level people and they want to license PhDs. Um so I just
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}didn't know about all these education conferences because we still very much fall from like a behaviorist you know like
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}how do we run a classic experiment on this? So it's just been really interesting this past year, um, and that's another reason
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}why I transitioned out of the counselor education program to higher education-student affairs. [ interviewer ] alright so that's what you're currently
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}higher education and-- [  Bowen  ] I start August 1. [ interviewer ] ok so you said earlier um that you
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}were an RA and there were all these other reasons why you thought that maybe moving into something like
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}student life or administrative work would make sense. Um where there um
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}other factors that influenced that? [ Bowen ] I got counseled out of the program by my advisor. Actually point blank
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}came to me and said, 'I don't think you want to do this." I was like, 'what are you talking about?!' She's like, "Bowen. You wanna be a Provost or 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}President of a university, like do you really think that counselor education is what you want to do?" And i said, "well, 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}I have to be faculty in some field for 5-7 years and I do think that I could make valuable contributions to this." and she's like, 
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}"I think you absolutely could, like, you're a great counselor. Like I've never questioned that, but this is not your passion."
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and then of course she went into her own story. And she was like, 'you know, I was a Master's in Latin American economics
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}and Spanish. But I started reading counselor education literature and it's like I came home professionally.
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}Like I just knew. I just knew.' She's like, "I have a Peace Prize for my work in Bolivia from the UN at 21',' like
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}I was like, "of course you do. That's awesome." like but uh, essentially what
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}she said is, once you understand what it is to fall in love your profession, you
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}want no less for anyone else. So, I don't know. Like it was hard hear but
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{font:Arial}{size:14}{Plain}{textColor:65535, 65535, 65535}sometimes the, the, whatever the expression is about non-tasty medicine. Um is that what you need. So yeah.
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